Replace mailing list by discuss


(Cédric Krier) #1

I find that the mailing lists have scattered the community by language and developer vs non-developer.
I find also that discourse make the discussion nicer and more powerful (thank to the quoting feature) andfFor the support, we can mark topic as solved. And finally, it does not require a Google account which makes us closer to the goal of being less google dependent.

I propose:

  • to make read only the following mailing lists: English, Català, Deutsch, Español, Français, РУССКИЙ and Developers.
  • to export the subscribed to announce into our mlmmj instance under announce@tryton.org
  • to export the subscribed to commit into our mlmmj instance under commit@tryton.org
  • to create a “Contribution” category to replace Contrib mailing list

As it is a big change for the community, the communication about it will be important. We should start by posting on the read only mailing list and Contrib about there imminent shutdown and invite to use discuss.tryton.org. We should also make a news about this few days before the shutdown.


(Sebastien Marie) #2

technically, it is possible to subscribe to Google mailing-list without Google account by using email commands (sending subscribe to tryton+subscribe@googlegroups.com) but anyway, it isn’t a trivial way to subscribe…


(Sebastien Marie) #3

as additional note, it is possible to use discuss in “mailing-list mode”. it is a per user configuration which once activated send emails to the user. it is also possible to reply by email.

so I would be in favor for such changes.


(Cédric Krier) #4

We do not activate the reply mode because we want people write message using the tools of discourse otherwise it is just another mailing list where people badly quote and clean answers.
So for me, activate the reply feature will make less enjoyable experience.


(Richard Martin) #5

I share your thoughts about the mailing-lists and appreciate your proposal.


#6

I don’t share this view. Both media have their pro and cons, and most projects have forums as well as mailing lists. Reducing the discussion to a web-forum is clearly a step back.


(Cédric Krier) #7

Can you share yours if they are different?
For me, they are the same kind of media. They are both asynchronous discussion channels.
With the exception of the “broadcast” mailing list like announce because it is asymmetric.

I do not share this analysis. From my experience, it is mainly some old projects which have both probably for historical reasons. Most of recent projects I follow do not have two separated asynchronous discussion channels.


(Korbinian Preisler) #8

I also have the experience that many projects and even big ones replaced their mailinglists by discuss or something similiar.


(Sergi Almacellas Abellana) #9

I’ve been using discuss in mailing list mode since we implemented it and I think it’s a good replacement for the mailing list. Once you get used it’s easy to click the reply button to answer the questions.

It also allows to create more categories than mailing lists andmove publications between categories which is not possible with mailing list. This solves a recurrent issue as there is some confusion about tryton@ and tryton-dev@ usage.

I agree with the proposal, but I have some doubts:

Do you plan to create language specific categories? Or use the translation plugin to allow users to post on foreign langauges?

What about to discussions specific to some localizations: shall we create a custom category for this?


(Cédric Krier) #10

No, I do not think we should split again the community with language.
English stays the primary language but thanks to the translation plugin, it stays inclusive to non-English speakers.

My thought about localization is that nothing is too locale to not be discussed generally.
For me, just like the issue about categorize post, localization discussions have the same problem. They are most of the time wrongly categorized as locale while a global solution can be applied with a tiny part locale.
For example, I have seen no problem in this blueprint Spanish VAT listing
And people not interested in one specific topic can just un-track it.


(Sergi Almacellas Abellana) #11

Agree but for newcomers it may be difficult to notice it so probably we should add a notice on the first page

Idem about the notice.

I like to make this the most inclusive possible so we should make a clear statement on the first page.


(Cédric Krier) #12

Already in Welcome to Discourse

I do not follow here. I think this “localization” topic only exists wrongly in the mind of old integrators.
Also I do not see which statement could be made. “You can talk about any localization of Tryton”. Why would we make a special mention about this and not all other topics?


#13

Email is lean, directly delivered, and easy to answer and quote (at least if you are not using one of the dumb/web mailers. You can filter etc. , which allows you to organize your work properly.
Backside is that most mailing lists dont allow attachments, which is an advantage of a forum. EMail discussions cant be closed (as recently here: ‘This thread was closed after 12h, as no more replies were added’)

To participate in a forum you have to visit a website (means you have to be more active) and et around with the forum software. Doing this with a cell phone is mostly a PITA. Doing quotations is a PITA. Adding images can be easy (as long as you dont have to upload it to a 3rd party site and add a link, then it is even more embarrassing.

Dont understand what you want to say

‘Old project’ means that it is successful over many years. Some of these old projects have just reorganized their mailing list and created new ones, in order to match more the users demand. Next to the forums.
So I don’t think age is a valid argument.


(Cédric Krier) #14

For me, all this points are also valid for discourse.

We always allowed attachments on Google groups.

It is not required if you activate the email notification. It is only required to post but for me it is a good thing because it forces people to take time to construct a good answer, properly quote and be notified in real time about other posts.

Have you tried discourse on phone? It is very very good.
But it has also application for popular mobile OS:

I do not know if it is from mobile. But if it is, it should be fixed now https://meta.discourse.org/t/android-copy-paste-menu-covers-quote-reply-button/38261
If it is in general, I do not understand. For me, discourse has the most effective quoting system I have seen.

I do not understand neither. We have always authorized the upload of images on discuss.tryton.org.

The broadcast mailing list like the announce does not involve discussion so discourse is not a better solution. That’s why I propose to keep them (but migrate to our infrastructure) because it is still the best tool.

For now, I see that our users demand is in favor of this replacement.

The age is not an argument, it is a possible explanation on why such project still use mailing list and did not envisaged discourse (which is quite young ~5 years). They have an history. Resistance to change is more and more stronger with time.


#15

It’s a perfect choice! It reads better than a mailinglist, better visual replies etc. You have also one place where everything is. Now you have different maillinglists and this forum, two places where the data lives. It’s better to have one place with one look, a place which don’t enforce you to have a google account.


#16

For me not.

You can start a thread by mail on discourse? I dont think so.
It is more convenient to work on mails offline than in one of these poor online editors (like this one)

As well from a standard PC its a pain…manually adding all the quote and unquote tags, next to the fact that there is no undo (or at least I havent found one)

The project just uses all communication means efficiently. I see no resistance there


(Sebastián Marró) #17

I agree with the proposal and with @pokoli that it solves the confusion about tryton@ and tryton-dev@ usage.

Also i like the idea of taking advantage of all the features of the interface.


(Nicolas Évrard) #18

Well once you’ve sent your email you can not take it back.
At least here you can remove your message using the trash can.

Of course editing in vim is easier sometimes but all in all I find that the editor is not bad at all and allows all kind of formatting not possible in the emails.


#19

Sure, once out, its gone (as always with Email)

You can always send HTML Emails, but do we really want this? At least for me, no.

Regarding EMail-Notification (see Ced’s remark 3 days ago): I have activated it, but I cant answer by mail (noreply@…). Is this a misconfiguration?


(Cédric Krier) #20

This would be easier to read with a proper quote :wink:

No, we want users to answer from the website because we want to have proper quotations, stripped messages, well and simple formatted messages, avoid duplicated answers, validation from discourse, etc.