Failing with all the basics

[sdettmer (Steffen Dettmer)]

Hi,

my first contact with Tryton. I used Lexware Financial Office before and made accounting (Bilanz, GuV, UstVA, Ust, Elster; as well as income tax) on my own. So I assume I have a basic understanding about the concepts. Now I will switch to simple german “EÜR” and was looking for a tool to write bills (im Europe, we have SEPA QR codes, in Germany, we need to fullfill “eRechnung” and whatnot). I find Lexware far too expensive and I neither wanted a Microsoft-dependent solution nor a (cloud) abo. So I came to Tryton!

My use case essentially I writing invoices, get UstVA data to fill ELSTER online and at the end of year get EÜR data for TAXMAN or whatver EinkSt program.

Before starting, I read quite some text and even watch two videos. Tryton seems very flexible and professional, runs on Linux, has a great web GUI and many times I read that it has a great community (that’s why I’m here :)). There even is a great book “Tryton Buch DACH”. Everything looked so promising. No long texts about customized invoice templates or mandatory fields, so I (possibly wrongly) assumed it would just work. I tried following it, but I even fail to correctly create my own company or to create an invoice.

I installed things up to SAO and followed the “wizard” and filled the forms. No new entry did not appear in the list, so I assumed I did something wrong and I tried again. Still, nothing appeared. Then I noticed the refresh button, pressed it and viola, I had my company. Twice of course

I selected the latest entry, deactivated it and deleted it. I ended up two still two entries, but now with empty content. To proceed, I created my company again assuming I could worry later. I attach a screenshot showing the deleted entry as “[2]” twice.

I tried to create an invoice. Beside that my SKR03 account module seems not to offer the accounts (I created something just to proceed, I even needed to add tax manually, but surely because I did not read enough yet), another issue is that I cannot change the company in the invoice, it is fixed “[2]”.

Then I tried to use the print icon. I think I had a very different expectation (a PDF with SEPA / GiroQR code and embedded eRechnung data), but I only got a “Rechnung-(1).odt”, so all I got was this:

It has no addresses, does not match window-envelope-format, does not even contain a bill number or an “Leistungsdatum” or the VAT at numeric value (I think in Germany we must print “19%” as number). As it is, for me this is useless, at least a lot of configuration seems to be needed. Unfortunately I didn’t find anything in the DACH handbook mentioned above. The “HOWTO print an invoice” texts I read didn’t help me either. Also, unfortunately, I lack the understanding of the concept behind. For example, I had to configure item groups with tax/VAT properties, similar as it is done in Lexware (with “Datev Automatikkonten”), but on the bill I had to do it manually. From the item, not even the price was taken automatically. In Lexware, the properties are taken from item groups, calculated automatically, using many configurable parameters (like logo file, size, position; fields to print…) and even some Visual Basic code that someone can adjust. This results in a PDF that can be sent by mail.

My use case essentially I writing invoices, get UstVA data to fill ELSTER online and at the end of year get EÜR data for TAXMAN or whatver EinkSt program. Can I reasonably archive this with Tryton?

Thank you for reading this long text. Any feedback, especially pointers where to read and learn, as well as rough general statements (like “you need commercial module abonements to create invoice PDFs for Germany”), is appreciated!

Best regards,
Steffen

[udono]

Hello @sdettmer,
welcome! It’s good to have you here. And thank you for your valuable feedback!

@sdettmer

Now I will switch to simple german “EÜR” and was looking for a tool to write bills

For “EÜR” (Einnahmen Überschussrechnung) you’ll probably want to use the Account Tax Cash Module — Tryton module to support tax report on cash basis

@sdettmer

(im Europe, we have SEPA QR codes,

The SEPA modules of interest could be the
https://docs.tryton.org/latest/modules-account-payment-sepa/index.html
https://docs.tryton.org/latest/modules-account-statement-sepa/index.html

For SEPA QR we have AFAIK no solution. Where we can find the specification?

@sdettmer

in Germany, we need to fullfill “eRechnung” and whatnot).

Tryton supports the Cross-Industry-Invoice (16B-CII) (XRechnung) format with the
https://docs.tryton.org/latest/modules-edocument-uncefact/index.html

@sdettmer

I installed things up to SAO and followed the “wizard” and filled the forms. No new entry did not appear in the list, so I assumed I did something wrong and I tried again. Still, nothing appeared. Then I noticed the refresh button

Yes, in Tryton it may be different to other web-applications today, that changes are not become visible immediately. As a multi user-system we choose to let the users decide when to save and when to refresh. This way we can handle concurrency in a clean way. So you always need to save and refresh your entries with Tryton.

@sdettmer

I selected the latest entry, deactivated it and deleted it. I ended up two still two entries, but now with empty content.

You mentioned you use Sao. When clicking on the party link of a company row, the party opens, but not the company. I guess, you deactivated the party, but not the company. You’ll need to select the company and use the switch view Button from the toolbar. If the company has no employee and no linked invoice, sale, accounts,… you can just delete the company. You find the delete button a little bit hidden. On the left of the toolbar there is the form title “Unternehmen” in your screenshot. Just click on it and choose “Delete” in the pop-up menu.

But maybe it is better to just create a new database and duplicate it after configuration. This way you have test and productive system separated.

@sdettmer

I tried to create an invoice. Beside that my SKR03 account module seems not to offer the accounts

When there are no accounts, the chart of account was not applied correctly or it is applied to the wrong company. Tryton is also able to handle multi-company with different accounting charts… Every user can have one active company. Look into Administration / Users and choose the correct company and employee. Save and re-login from the client.

The German Account SKR 03 Module — Tryton module with German chart of accounts SKR03 provides the full Chart of Accounts and many Taxes from the DATEV.

The account_de_skr03 module needed to be activated (Administration / Modules). After this you need to create the chart of accounts for a company. Look in menu entry Financial / Preferences / Templates / Create Chart of accounts from Template.

You’ll also need a fiscal year.

@sdettmer

but I only got a “Rechnung-(1).odt”, so all I got was this:

Yes, the reports are a kind of generic. Maybe you can re-use this templates from @herrdeh , - but I neither reviewed nor used them, - Tryton Community / tools / Berichtsvorlagen Deutschland · GitLab

You can change the output format to PDF by Administration / User Interface/ Actions / Report, select Invoice, set “Extension” to “Portable Document Format”.
There also you can download the actual template, edit it to your needs and upload it again.

@sdettmer

It has no addresses

…because your invoiced party “Allgemeiner Kunde” has possibly no address.

@sdettmer

not even contain a bill number

… because the invoice is not posted and stays in editable draft mode. Tryton stores also a copy of the invoice report when posting it. You can set the sequence (Nummernkreis) in the Administration menu, also.

@sdettmer

or an “Leistungsdatum”

For the common cases you can use the “accounting date” in tab “other info”. Note that we have a separate accounting date and invoice date.

@sdettmer

or the VAT at numeric value (I think in Germany we must print “19%” as number).

… because the party has possibly no identifier for VAT taxes.

@sdettmer

From the item, not even the price was taken automatically.

I don’t understand this issue. Usually the list price of the product is used.
Maybe you mean the product description is not copied to the invoice? Please elaborate.

@sdettmer

In Lexware, the properties are taken from item groups, calculated automatically, using many configurable parameters (like logo file, size, position; fields to print…) and even some Visual Basic code that someone can adjust. This results in a PDF that can be sent by mail.

It is similar with Tryton, you can edit the fields in Libre Office and also adding Python Code. You can send the document by choosing the e-Mail Button in the toolbar.

@sdettmer

I had to configure item groups with tax/VAT properties

This is done with product categories in Tryton. There you can add accounts and taxes to an product category with Accounting selected.

@sdettmer

My use case essentially I writing invoices, get UstVA data to fill ELSTER online and at the end of year get EÜR data for TAXMAN or whatver EinkSt program. Can I reasonably archive this with Tryton?

I think it should be possible after some configuration to use Tryton for this use case. For the UStVA you’ll need to copy the values manually into the Tax app.

As Tryton tries to serve the needs of many different use cases like multi user, multi company, many languages, many localisations, anglo-saxon and continental flavours, companies of any size and industry. For a specific use case Tryton always feels partially a little bit too limited or the opposite too exuberant. Here we are continuously debating to find a good common denominator.

Best regards

[udono]

@sdettmer

Thank you for reading this long text

Indeed I very much prefer short separate topics which I can be answer in some minutes.

[ced (Cédric Krier)]

@udono

@sdettmer

From the item, not even the price was taken automatically.

I don’t understand this issue. Usually the list price of the product is used.

The invoice does not compute any price from the product.
This is the responsibility of the sales or purchase which will create invoices with the proper price.

[htgoebel (Hartmut Goebel)]

Welcome @sdettmer to the “Tryton is not so easy as you would expect” journey. This is why @herrdeh wrote the “Tryton Buch DACH” you alreads discovered. It is strongly advised to work through it.

@udono

For SEPA QR we have AFAIK no solution. Where we can find the specification?

This is EPC-QR-Code, also called “Girocode”. Much like Swiss QR-Rechnung - except that the contained data is different.

@udono

@sdettmer

in Germany, we need to fullfill “eRechnung” and whatnot).

Tryton supports the Cross-Industry-Invoice (16B-CII) (XRechnung) format with the
https://docs.tryton.org/latest/modules-edocument-uncefact/index.html

I’m afraid, this is not enough for several reasons

1. For B2G in Germany a different XML format is used, called XRechnung, based on EU regualtion EU/2014/55.

   Looking at German Wikipedia, I can not find any link between UN/CEFACT-XML CII and XRechnung, thus I’m unsure whether this module can be used for XRechnung. Looking at the Spezifikation XRechnung Version 3.0.2 i even doubt that edocument-uncefact is of much use since the root node seems to be named differently. Anyhow the structure of both look similar

2. XRechnung has several variants which become relevant if selling to public agencies.

3. For XRechnung, any “substantiating documents” must be included in the XML document, which I can’t spot in edocument-uncefact.

4. In Germany for B2B, ZUGFerD seems to be used more widely. This is a PDF including the XML and AFAIU the XML is compliant to edocument-uncefact. French “Factur-X 1.0” is the same as “ZUGFerD 2.1”, thus adding support for this would support to countries.

   I can’t spot how to attach a XML created by edocument-uncefact to an PDF. Any pointer? If this is possible IMHO the default invoices should include it.

   Ah, and ZUGFerD also has a variant for attaching XRechnung to the PDF \o/. Looking at the specification of ZUGFerD there might be similarities between XRechnung and UN/CEFACT-XML CII.

Anyhow, much more important: As of 2025-01-01 all VAT-applicable companies in Germany must be able to accept electronic invoices. Is Tryton able to do so?

[udono]

@htgoebel

I can’t spot how to attach a XML created by edocument-uncefact to an PDF. Any pointer?

maybe have a look at GitHub - pretix/python-drafthorse: Pure-python ZUGFeRD implementation

@htgoebel

Anyhow, much more important: As of 2025-01-01 all VAT-applicable companies in Germany must be able to accept electronic invoices. Is Tryton able to do so?

AFAIU in 2025 it is only required for a German company to receive electronic invoices. This means it must provide a channel where another company can send an electronic invoice, like Email.

It would be comfortable to be able to handle such electronic invoices inside Tryton, but it seems to be not required. In the first time the handling of such invoices could be done with separate tools.

From reading the official papers, I get no clue which document formats should be supported:

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:32014L0055
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=celex%3A32012R1025

[edbo]

I would recommend using UBL which is used internationally and is the base of peppol, which is a (nightmarish, because another cloud thing) next step in e-procurement and e-invoicing.

Maybe @pokoli can shed a bit more light on this because as I remember correctly, he was doing something with UBL.

Personally I’m working on an invoice import based on invoice2data which can import invoices based on extracted text and templates.

[htgoebel (Hartmut Goebel)]

@udono

maybe have a look at GitHub - pretix/python-drafthorse: Pure-python ZUGFeRD implementation

Well, when asking for a pointer, I meant a pointer to some respective mechanism in Tryton

Anyhow, not to bad:

This library can be used to generate or parse the contents of this XML file as well as attach it to a PDF.

It might be easier to umplement than creating a Genshi-template since it uses an object-oriented approach.

@udono

. In the first time the handling of such invoices could be done with separate tools.

Of course, manual processes are always an alternative.

Anyhow, this sounds like the is no initiative for implementing either way. Right?

@edbo

I would recommend using UBL which is used internationally

XRechnung and ZUGFerD/Factur-X are set. What is the benefit using yet another format?

@edbo

Personally I’m working on an invoice import based on invoice2data which can import invoices based on extracted text and templates.

Looks interersting, thanks. Anyhow, “electronic invoice” does not mean PDF, but XML (which might be embedded into a PDF). Thus doing OCR on a PDF is not what is needed here.